Curse

SotiCoto · Feb 14, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Thats what would ultimately improve the AI issues with the heroes... and theoretically could save A-Net a lot of hassle in the long run.

What I'm suggesting is a system rather like the action scripting system used in Baldur's Gate 2 ... I had a rather different way of playing that game to my friends, who would be constantly monitoring and directing every character in their party at once. I know some people do this with their heroes in GW too in order to ensure they use the right skills in the right order.

As an alternative... I believe that we should have a simple scripting system that can save a mini-script with a particular build for AI purposes (optional) which will take priority over the default AI under certain set conditions...

For instance... a system to tell Olias as N/Me that if he spots an unhexed opponent adjacent to other opponents (nearest), to cast Arcane Echo (if recharged and sufficient energy) then SS (same conditions) on that opponent, then cast the echoed SS on the next nearest enemy fulfilling the same conditions.

On a far simpler note, it would allow for the programming of monks to do simple things like use particular skills requiring less than 50% health of an ally ON allies with less than 50% health.... or just to get a hero to use certain skills in the correct order.

Granted... sometimes it messes up... but thats half the fun of the scripting process. There was little I found more satisfying in Baldur's Gate 2 than having given AI scripts to the entire party that worked in perfect coordination for just about all circumstances. Adding this to Guild Wars would likely bring some extra fun back into preparing for PvE runs, allowing heroes to theoretically use all the builds that real people can... and potentially ensure that intelligence prevails against dumb luck.

[I've been thinking along such lines a lot lately. Just watching my heroes going about their regular business, I can't help but think that there are many things I'd like them to do differently, and furthermore I know the equivalent Infinity-Engine scripting language to make them do it were they in that system.]

Emerikol · Feb 14, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

I know someone is going to come in this thread and start freaking out about how scripting = cheating and farming would be automated and you could walk away from your computer for days and gain free XP. JUST SHUT UP your driving me crazy with your illogical negativity!

Ok, now that I got that out of the way.....I think your idea is great! Heroes can do pretty stupid things, and micro-managing everything they do while trying to keep track of the timing of your own skills is not very easy. There certainly needs to be a better way.

/signed

SotiCoto · Feb 14, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Heh... someone might say that.... but its not as if I'd be setting them to run to particular areas. The level of scripting required to send a Hero or party of Heroes right the way through a PvE explorable instance, accounting for the layout of the terrain and the positions of each enemy party would be totally beyond insane.... and useless besides since the Heroes claim any drops they get for themselves (and they'd be doing it off-compass if the player is AFK, so he/she would get nothing from it).... ^_^

All it would do is give us more control over the way Heroes react to things without having to multitask...

The only downside would be for people who believe Guild Wars is becoming too much of a single-player game... as without a doubt, with the correct scripting this would make Heroes vastly better than any human player (though of course with the wrong scripting it could nerf their AI completely for as long as the dud script remains in effect). As such, more team efforts could be done with heroes rather than filling the slots with PuGs .... (or even Guildies, potentially).

O'course there is also the matter of amusing trivialities... like scripting heroes individually to use different instrument emoticons the moment I start dancing! =P

simon_snowflake · Feb 14, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

/not signed

seems to me that you have to be a rather experienced player to manage to do this. This way, the game reaches some sort of 1337 state, so its allmost impossible to play for new people or people who don't understand the scripting. Since experienced players will have their scripted heroes to aid him/her, they won't have to join with less experienced players.

Emerikol · Feb 14, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Well, Guild Wars is very much a single-player game, with the option to take human players with you instead. People who complain about this need to face the facts, and get over it. What's done is done, and Anet will never change it to be more of a traditional MMO.

Increasing the usability of heroes will not change anything at this point, as far as the single player vs. being grouped with human players is concerned. People will always have their preference.

I personally only group with my wife and sister, otherwise I play solo with heroes. In almost all cases it is always easier for me to get the job done myself or with friends, rather than relying on a PUG for assistance.

^^Inexperianced players can learn the game themselves with henchies or heroes(scripted or default...does'nt matter), I am not responsable for teaching them. In no way shape or form do I feel forced to do this with the current state of the game.

SotiCoto · Feb 14, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_snowflake

/not signed

seems to me that you have to be a rather experienced player to manage to do this. This way, the game reaches some sort of 1337 state, so its allmost impossible to play for new people or people who don't understand the scripting. Since experienced players will have their scripted heroes to aid him/her, they won't have to join with less experienced players.

#1. Those who want to help less experienced players would do so regardless (as I do). Those who wouldn't help them with this implemented wouldn't be doing it anyway. It changes nothing regarding the helping of the less experienced. Even with the AI problems currently abounding, people still use Heroes a lot, and equip them with optimised builds that an inexperienced player might not use. Nothing changed there I reiterate.

#2. Scripts could be exchanged between people much as builds can.

#3. You want to bring elitism into this? Take a look at the PvP community and you'll see more elitism than this could EVER generate. Furthermore, I suspected that it would be PvPers who would object to this most strongly, simply because AI seems to be an abhorrent concept to them..

#4. Provided the scripting system was in a fairly simple form (like the scripts for the Baldur's Gate games) or even done with icons to some extent, experience wouldn't play into it at all; just common sense and a bit of smart thinking. Even a complete n00b could come along, take a basic script template and make modifications to suit themselves.

simon_snowflake · Feb 14, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

i do partally agree, but i see that a lot of people allready have a problem tuning their heroes decently. (specially since not everybody has a couple of hundred skills unlocked).
So I really see this to be a potential obstacle for a lot of players, specially new or very young ones that dont understand scripting (because of diffrent native language for instance).

T. Drake · Feb 14, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

/signed

Thats a great Idea, but I don't think it will make it into the game.

A-Net's plan is to create a ladder for Hero Battles. People who can script will get a great advantage over people who cannot do the same. It should be no problem to disable scripts while fighting in the arena of course.

Maybe they can add a special Arena for scripted AI ^^ (just a silly thought)

Quote:

(specially since not everybody has a couple of hundred skills unlocked).

I have (all of them), and it's sad that my possibilities are so restricted because the AI doesn't use the skills the way I want it to.

Quote:

So I really see this to be a potential obstacle for a lot of players, specially new or very young ones that dont understand scripting (because of diffrent native language for instance).

You've got to think about the older players, too. Scripting language would be English of course (Never saw anything else). And they don't need to write a script to get the Heros work, it's optional.

Emerikol · Feb 14, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Like said with the OP, the scripts don't have to be complicated like in text form.

It could just use the icons with timers. Put the skill icons in the order that you want them used, and set the timer on each skill. There are many possabilities for making it usable to all people.

Knightsaber Sith · Feb 14, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Been suggested countless times already
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10117960

SotiCoto · Feb 14, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith

Been suggested countless times already
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10117960

Since when does one quoted instance (that you trivially disagreed to repeatedly) constitute "countless"?

For that matter, how could the superiority of certain scripts over human ability (under limited circumstances, mind you) possibly provide a hinderance to people? Heroes are for PvE, and the notable point about PvE is that it is not supposed to be competitive.

Knightsaber Sith · Feb 14, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

That one doesn't constitute countless. All the countless threads before it do. If you look back to the very last page of the Sardelic Section; you will see the oldest thread still here is from January '07 so they must have done some cleaning. That doesn't negate the fact that it was suggested soo many times before; it just means that the majority of people that had the idea had it back when the game was still new.

Regardless of how many of the previously made threads are still accessible; if there is at least one still around you're supposed to use it and not make another. Don't take an attitude with me just for pointing out another thread you should have used rather than making another.
---------------------------------------------------

And the potential superiority of scripted heroes over human ability wouldn't provide an hindrance to anyone. What it would do is make the game too easy. In such an event; they could either leave it too easy at which point the game would just be boring and turn to a strictly PvP only game if not dieing out all together. Or, Anet being the sticklers for balance they are, could balance it by making enemy AI significantly tougher to match. Being calibrated to counter the heroes; normal people not using heroes would then have an extremely tough time trying to play and would likely stop playing. The only way to play through PvE would be to work to get your heroes the best equipment/skills so they'd be ready to fight for you (an awful lot like training your pokemon >_< ) .

I'm not against it because I think it might give some people an advantage over others; I'm against it because I could see it easily ruining the game.

SotiCoto · Feb 14, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

If you object to it then all you need do is thus leave the explanation (though I will add my counters where I believe it appropriate).... and your /unsigned mark... which seems to be the standard here.

I wasn't aware that this had been done many times before.... Sorry about that..... though it does rather imply that its a change a lot of people want to be made.

Anyhow.... regarding your particular objections to it. I don't believe that the difference, in terms of magnitude, would be all that great.
The only direct advantage would be improved reflexes. The AI would be able to trigger exactly when conditions were met... rather than half a second to a whole second later. This is already exploited with certain Ranger and Mesmer builds for interrupts, and I doubt it could be put to better use than that.
This however would rely heavily on the quality of the AI programming. Remember also that there is a certain element of randomness in the whole gaming process and scripts tend to be very rigid and inflexible... less so the more complicated they are. Furthermore, if the person writing the script wasn't taking all circumstances into account effectively then the script might actually function worse under some circumstances than default AI.

O'course I'm not kidding myself in thinking that the scripts would be eternally imperfect. People would come up with awesome scripts much like they come up with awesome builds... and they would get copied.
Thing is... in many other respects these suggested scripts would be just like the builds they were designed to operate: copyable, limited by their boundaries, often abusable in certain circumstances.... but likewise equally capable of being nerfed by A-Net if the folks there thought it necessary.

Rest assured, they wouldn't let it destroy the game by any means... They certainly wouldn't make the enemy AI harder to combat it... There wouldn't be any functionality put into the scripting process that wouldn't be theoretically possible (and often quite probable) for a human to pull off... which is entirely the point here. Heroes are supposed to be an alternative for PuGs.... a competant alternative.... whereas as it stands they have very clear and obvious artificial tendencies and standard flaws... much as the enemy AI does (though the enemy AI has weight of numbers and level on its side, most of the time).

Just remember... PvE needn't be competitive. If it were then I would have given up long ago as I clearly don't find the Elite areas as easy as some people do. Nobody who liked to PuG would give up just because heroes got better. Its an alternative option; not a total replacement.

Making the game easier for some people isn't always going to ruin it. Believe it or not... some people find the game too hard... and that is as much if not more of a deterrant than it being too easy for others. I'm not as skilled as many, apparently, but I try to make up for it with brute determination... at least for the time being. If I could control my heroes better I would feel at least like the playing field had been evened a tad.

Nelis Bonecrusher · Feb 14, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

/notsigned....yea..lets make things complicated..

tenshi_strife · Feb 14, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

/signed...

and to say in very plain words why this wont ruin pve

AI WILL NEVER BE BETTER THAN A HUMAN EVER

ok the scripting will not make the game easier, it does not make any skills more powerful, it just causes the heros to use them correctly under certain curcumstances. HUMANS ALREADY DO THAT and much better than any ai could cause ai can get confused...... easy where as a human will adapt. if a human player gets diversion and loses a skill they will work around it ai will not. i just want scripting so my heros dont pull super retarded stunts like glyph of sacrafice then aura of restoration *and yes this has happened to me before* scripting will not change the game AT ALL for those who dont use it, for those who do it will just make the whole hero experience better. and about the people useing heros instead of players.... PEOPLE DO ALREADY, also anet would not introduce heros if they did not want people to use them. also you can only have 3 heros and to not use players you will need henches, henches are not programmable so it will still hinder you. in fact this might encourage people to get other people with well programed heros to help them further making this more multiplayer. i do not see any way this could hurt the game but in many ways this will make beating the game with multiple charecters more enjoyable and less tedious.

gameshoes3003 · Feb 14, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Thats what would ultimately improve the AI issues with the heroes... and theoretically could save A-Net a lot of hassle in the long run.

What I'm suggesting is a system rather like the action scripting system used in Baldur's Gate 2 ... I had a rather different way of playing that game to my friends, who would be constantly monitoring and directing every character in their party at once. I know some people do this with their heroes in GW too in order to ensure they use the right skills in the right order.

As an alternative... I believe that we should have a simple scripting system that can save a mini-script with a particular build for AI purposes (optional) which will take priority over the default AI under certain set conditions...

For instance... a system to tell Olias as N/Me that if he spots an unhexed opponent adjacent to other opponents (nearest), to cast Arcane Echo (if recharged and sufficient energy) then SS (same conditions) on that opponent, then cast the echoed SS on the next nearest enemy fulfilling the same conditions.

On a far simpler note, it would allow for the programming of monks to do simple things like use particular skills requiring less than 50% health of an ally ON allies with less than 50% health.... or just to get a hero to use certain skills in the correct order.

Granted... sometimes it messes up... but thats half the fun of the scripting process. There was little I found more satisfying in Baldur's Gate 2 than having given AI scripts to the entire party that worked in perfect coordination for just about all circumstances. Adding this to Guild Wars would likely bring some extra fun back into preparing for PvE runs, allowing heroes to theoretically use all the builds that real people can... and potentially ensure that intelligence prevails against dumb luck.

[I've been thinking along such lines a lot lately. Just watching my heroes going about their regular business, I can't help but think that there are many things I'd like them to do differently, and furthermore I know the equivalent Infinity-Engine scripting language to make them do it were they in that system.]

I didn't know Baldur's Gate 2 had bot scripting.... I've beaten that game twice and I never encountered such a thing. But, this'll turn out like an option you can do for StarCraft in the Campaign Editor.
It's not a bad suggestion but I think bots are fine as they are. The hex people that don't have that hex yet, they manage their energy pretty well. Also, they can spike better than human players can on occasions.

SotiCoto · Feb 15, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

I didn't know Baldur's Gate 2 had bot scripting....

I take it you never visited the TeamBG site...
I made vast numbers of simple mods (for personal use) for Baldur's Gate 2. Aside from the more conventional things, I had to learn how they used various scripting functions in-game.... often just for fixing in-game bugs using the console panel at the bottom of the screen. Aside from spawning various things though, the scripts control much of the NPC behaviour patterns (and compiled character scripts can be put in the scripts folder and used for any of the characters)... There were quite a few default ones to choose from for various classes, but I figured once I started to learn how it worked that I could make better and more complicated ones, taking into account more of the possible spells that my various spellcasters could have available and when to use them. Furthermore I figured I could add extra flashy graphical effects to certain actions to make the game more graphically amusing... so I did that too.

In any case, BG2 isn't the point.

What is the point here is to try and make the heroes capable of doing what one wants them to do.... and not merely messing around on more generalised, build-inferior AI.

SotiCoto · Feb 16, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

{I'd rather try and keep this alive, since its something that rings as quite important to me.}